Star Spangled Bangerz (Marvin Gaye's Rendition of the National Anthem)

This episode is dedicated to Coach Jimmy Collins, longtime Marvin Gaye fan and loving father of Bring Receipts co-host Brandi Collins-Dexter. Coach Collins passed away in December 2020.

In this episode, Brandi argues that Marvin Gaye's rendition of the national anthem at the 1983 NBA All-Star Game is the only version America deserves. Steven, though a fan of this version, completely disagrees.

Joining the podcast to decide who is right is Matt Howard, the current National Organizer for Communications at Right to the City Alliance and previously was the Co-Executive Director at About Face: Veterans Against the War.

This episode covers Marvin Gaye's musical career, the history of the Star Spangled Banner (did you know it came from a drinking song?), and revolutionary drum machine the Roland TR-808, and major events from 1982.

This episode features the song "The AnacreonticSong" as performed by the University of Michigan's American Music Institute.

Let us know who you think won via Social Media:
Twitter: @bring_receipts
Instagram: @bring_receipts

Follow BR Hosts on Twitter:
Brandi Collins-Dexter (@BrandingBrandi)
Steven Renderos (@stevenrenderos)

Artwork & Logo by:
Andrés Guzmán (IG: andresitoguzman)

Beats by:
DJ Ren

Transcript

S1Ep3 Receipts Needed - Marvin Gaye_mixdown_v3 (4-19-21).mp3

 Steven [00:00:01] I'm Steven 

 Brandi [00:00:03] and I'm Brandi, 

 Steven [00:00:05] and welcome to Bring Receipts on this podcast Brandi and I argue are unpopular, or at least questionable, opinions about pop culture. 

 Brandi [00:00:16] In this episode, we ask the question, 

 Brandi [00:00:18] does the US deserve to feel sexy? We're debating Marvin Gaye's national anthem at the 1983 NBA All-Star Game. I believe it's the only version of the national anthem that America truly deserves. 

 Steven [00:00:32] I completely disagree. 

 Brandi [00:00:34] Joining us to decide who is special guest judge Matt Howard. 

 Brandi [00:00:38] So get ready. It's time for the Quiet Storm edition of Bring Receipts. 

 Marvin Gaye [00:01:02] Say, can you see? By the dawns early light. What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming. Whose broad stripes and bright stars. Through the perilous fight, oh lord. Oh the fight. Oh the ramparts we watched, were so galantly, streaming. And the rockets red glare. The bombs bursting in air. Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there. Oh say, does thy Star Spangled Banner yet wave. For the land of the free, and the home of the, home of the brave.

 Brandi [00:03:33] I'm really excited about this episode. I've been thinking and preparing for it a lot, and in the context of that, definitely thinking about my dad and my dad loved music and he loves sports. This episode brings those things together. He was a deejay in college. When we were growing up. We used to make mix tapes or when I was growing up, I used to make mix tapes. And so a lot of my associative memories are connected to hearing music for the first time with my dad and often driving in the car for long periods of time. He really liked baritones like Barry White and Teddy Pendergrass, but he loved falsettos like Smokey Robinson, Prince, Russell Thompkins Jr. from The Stylistics, and especially he loved tenors like Sam Cooke and like Marvin Gaye, who I believe had a four octave range, but mainly his upfront vocals were tenor. And my dad sang a lot in that range of tenor with more falsetto. So that might be part of part of why he like that. So I'd like to dedicate this podcast episode to my dad who passed away at the age of seventy four in December 2020. One of my earliest memories is actually of Marvin Gaye's death and the reaction from my dad. I would have been about three and a half, four when when he died. But I just remember, you know, the hurt that my dad felt about it. And I've actually only come to understand more some components of why, as I was researching for this podcast and seeing some similarities between him and my dad, a lot of differences, to be sure. But I can understand why he might have been a figure that my dad related to, as well as appreciating him vocally and stylistically. So to kick it into Marvin Gaye's bio. So how much do you know, Steven? How much how much of a fan were you of Marvin Gaye when you were growing up? 

 Steven [00:05:17] Big fan I definitely remember when I started collecting records, picking up What's Going On. I remember picking up a couple of like his early kind of Tammi Terrell, you know, collaboration albums. So big fan. And I'm excited about this particular topic because even though I'm going to play the heel on this argument, I do think this performance at the  NBA all star game in nineteen eighty three, it was incredible. So I look forward to the debate. 

 Brandi [00:05:50] So I'm going to kick into the bio of Marvin Gaye. He was born in nineteen thirty nine in Washington, D.C., which was at the time a hotbed of activism and desegregation efforts around housing. In 1957, Washington's African-American population surpassed the 50 percent mark so that that made it the first predominantly black major city in the country, leading a nationwide trend so that D.C. is kind of the original chocolate city. And so that's the environment that Marvin Gaye is coming up in. His father was a preacher, very charismatic, also a strict disciplinarian. I think these are some of the components of his childhood that remind me of stories that my dad told me. So but in any event, his father, his father was very strict with him. And he used to always tell Marvin Gaye growing up that there's too much of the devil in you. His father was also very contradictory in a number of ways that obviously influenced Marvin Gaye, one of which was that he was a cross dresser and he wore clothing that was traditionally for women. So he's like this charismatic preacher that doesn't want to see his son. Marvin, doing secular music has a lot of judgment around it, which influences that relationship throughout his life. But he's also, you know, going out in women's clothing and Marvin is embarrassed by this. He tries, I think, to deal with that through a type of hyper masculinity and his persona that I think at times veers toxic, which we'll talk about later. But his father was very much like a spare the rod spoil the child kind of father. He whipped him with a belt he would make him get undressed before he whipped him. And Marvin Gaye had a very close relationship with his mother. So he would he would run to his mother for protection. He was extremely attached to her. He also sang a lot in the choir, which we see with a lot of black artists and singers. They tend to get their start in the church. Marvin Gaye was no exception. He was also part of doo wop groups in school in DC. Again, another thing that was very similar to my dad. My dad sang in the choir and was also part of doo wop groups. He dropped out of high school and joined the Air Force at the age of 17 and he ended up getting a dishonorable discharge 214. We'll have to ask Matt if he knows what that means. Cause I do not. And he he used to make comments or say things like, we have two gods and we have to decide which one we want to serve. So you see and Marvin Gaye throughout his career, this tension playing out between being raised in a godly environment and being drawn to the secular, being drawn to the darker side of life. This duality is something that you tend to see the ecstasy and hell existing side by side. I would say in a lot of black music. I don't know if it's restricted to black music necessarily, but I feel like I see it in a lot of artists like Prince or you hear these stories of different hip hop artists like Mase or M.C. Hammer, others that do hip hop, or pop music for a long time and then quote unquote, find God and end up going back into the church. And I'm not sure that I've heard a lot of those stories in other with other ethnic groups even I don't know if that's like you saying that phenomenon. 

 Steven [00:09:13] No they just come in to the business just being ultra religious if you're Latinx. So there's no there's nothing to go back to, they're already there. Yeah. 

 Brandi [00:09:26] So so he's doing his music thing and he moves to Detroit to join this small little startup company called Motown. At the time, he's a session drummer and a songwriter. Motown at this time was becoming a Mecca that true musicians and from all across the country, people that expected to come there and be made a star. And it was very much a branding factory. And it's partially because Detroit is like a factory industrial city. Berry Gordy was a factory worker and a boxer, and for him, he envisioned Motown to be the General Motors of the recording industry. So he really had this assembly line mentality of how he set up from writer to producer to singer to engineer and the polishing process that happens with the musicians as far as aesthetic and branding. But in addition to being a factory was also like a university. So you have all of these young, attractive, probably charismatic artists hobnobbing in this place. You know, their kids. And Marvin Gaye, he's there, he's young, he's doing his thing. He's dating people, but he really locks in on Anna Gordy who's the sister of Berry Gordy. She's a songwriter in her own right. She actually wrote two of the songs on the What's Going On album, including God His Love, which is one of my favorites. And he just falls in love and he's trying to woo her. For those familiar with Marvin Gaye's discography, Stubborn Kind of Fellow and Pride and Joy are just two of the songs that he wrote about her as he was in the wedding process. So they end up getting married at the time and a gorgeous thirty six and Marvin Gaye is twenty one. And because he's married the sister of the president and founder of Motown, he gets immediately fast tracked as an artist in a way that others don't. So it's a very savvy career choice in addition to a loved one. And I do I do believe for all intents and purposes, that it was a love match, that he wasn't just about like furthering his career. He admits to himself, though, being like pretty spoiled and feeling like there were certain things that he didn't have to do that other people had to do. It was also really competitive. He always wanted to be the best. If Berry Gordy was the king of Motown. He wanted to be the prized prince. Initially he wants to be a crooner. He wants to be like Frank Sinatra, a crossover artist doing standards. But people weren't necessarily looking for that from Motown artists or very many black artists. And that space was already occupied by people like Sammy Davis. But he was also undeniably a sex symbol. He was the type of guy that when he walked into a room, people paid attention. They were drawn to him, a little bit swoon action happening. He's very good at improvising and he had a lot of musicality to him. He also had performance anxiety so he couldn't dance like other artists at Motown, and he would get anxiety attacks backstage before he would go on. But like because he was so charismatic on the record and in person, even when, like doing awkward robot dances and things like that, he was kind of able to seduce people and he was able to musically seduce anyone, put beside him, whether that was Mary Wells, Tina Turner, Diana Ross, or as you mentioned Tammi Terrell. So what's your favorite? What's your favorite, Steven? Like Marvin Gaye, Tammi Terrell song do you have one? 

 Steven [00:13:00] It's a good question. I feel like they did a version of If This World Were Mine that I really love. You know, obviously, I think like people think a lot about Luther when they think of that song but as a duet between these two singers. It's incredible. 

 Brandi [00:13:17] Yeah, she actually has some really good solo songs that she did as well, some that I think were written by Stevie Wonder. Maybe she's covering Stevie Wonder songs. I can't remember, but if folks had not checked out Tammi Terrell's solo pieces, they definitely should, because she she actually really had a beautiful voice and cadence and presence and she was quite young. And so she was very prolific to be so young. And in Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell, they were they were like musical soul mates. She suffered, unfortunately, a lot of abuse in her young life and in Marvin's friendship in the time they spent together, that was kind of like a sanctuary for her in a sanctuary for them both. Even though it was platonic. While they were doing a concert on stage, she collapsed into his arms and she is later diagnosed with having a brain tumor. She's eventually confined to a wheelchair. She suffers from blindness, hair loss. She drops to about ninety three pounds and she was about 5'5", just to give you context for that. And then she dies about a month before her 25th birthday. So she was twenty four years old. By all accounts, this really rocks Marvin Gaye. It shakes him spiritually. He falls into a depression. It's said to be one of the moments that kind of shatters him and sends him spiraling. Some people say that he harbored a guilt or responsibility for Tammy's death and that he carried that with him. And Denise, more and more acting out and the relationship between him and Anna Gordy, his wife, is becoming increasingly dysfunctional. They're both super suspicious of one another. They're convinced the other one is cheating. So he would go to a different hotel rooms, looking for her, trying to find her. She'd go to the studio and other places looking for him. And that's the tension and paranoia that's channeled into songs like Heard It Through the Grapevine and others that we get from Marvin Gaye. In this period, there was a lot playing out also on the national and global stage. His younger brother Frankie is in the Vietnam War. At the time he's actually a radio disc jockey in the Army. And in 1970, he returns back to D.C. There's a number of different conversations that take place between Frankie and Marvin and Frankie's recollections of what's happening in the war lead Marvin to compose songs that would end up on the What's Going On album, which was released in 1971. People say that this is when Marvin Gaye becomes political. I think in looking at his background in D.C. and contextualizing that against the spirit of protest in black D.C., that was part of his upbringing. I'm not sure that was necessarily a new thing for him, but it certainly unleashed by the moments that we're in as a country at this time. You have shootings on college campuses like Kent State, 11 days after that, you have a shooting at Jackson State University, a historically black college in Mississippi. The police opened fire on one hundred black students. Two people were killed, 12 were injured. This is very much underreported by the media, especially juxtaposed against Kent State, because, you know, people don't necessarily care about black pain in that way. But this is said to be one of the different stories that influenced Marvin Gaye. And so you have these assassinations that are going on. Everything's coming to a head. And he writes this album, What's Going On? And he actually writes a couple of political Christmas songs that are supposed to be on an album that he did around 72. But that album, I think was not released until after his death. But one of my dad's favorite Christmas songs is this, like, really sad but incredibly beautiful song called I Want to Come Home for Christmas, where he's talking about a prisoner of war that just wants to go home and he can't because he's fighting this war. As a side note, when I went to visit my dad in the hospital, when he was in a coma, it was playing on the radio. And for a while when he was in the hospital, they wouldn't play any music or any sport or anything while he was in a coma. So we had to talk them into doing that. And so when I walked in and they were playing I want to come home for Christmas, it was almost like they're playing it for him is so incredibly sad. I probably can't listen to that song again without some sort of trauma. It still is a song that I would encourage anyone to listen to because it is just a really incredibly lush composition and vocal. At the time that What's Going On is getting ready to come out, black music is often seen as unintellectual. So you have a lot of - and I'm not talking necessarily about Odetta or like, you know, certain types of black folk music that's happening in the 60s and 70s. I'm talking more about like the Motown sound and more of this pop soul, black music. It's often seen as like being a little more shallow. And and that's part of because it's coded for protection. And so today, people may understand Martha Reeves and the Vendela song Dancing in the Streets to be about marching and protesting. And black people certainly would have understood it as such, especially when they're calling out specific cities. But that wouldn't have been as clear to your average white listener, similar with reflections by the Supremes that has a very urgent nature to its composition that we now, understand to be speaking to the political moment, but again, that's something that may not have been clear to other listeners and I think that was preferred for Berry Gordy, like I think he really wanted to layer his music with subtext, but to have it be very pop in for some of those messages to go over people's heads. So he had to be convinced to release What's Going On. He really didn't want to. He thought it was way too political. But Marvin Gaye was able to push ahead. Anna Gordy who wrote some songs on the album was key to getting Berry Gordy to finally allow, you know, to put forward what's going on so it gets released in 1971 and becomes a huge hit. It's everywhere. The songs are instantly iconic. We still listen to the music today and the success of that album really puts Marvin as an artist and a completely different level. So Marvin Gaye is really hitting his stride. He's really having a lot of success. He's still having these tensions with his father and trying to make his father happy. He has this very tragic relationship where it's like no matter what he does, his father cannot see him as a man to aspire to be. And that's really all that he wants from his father. But again, he he he he love sports. He tries to embody this hypermasculine persona, the ultimate lover man. And in the 70s, you really see this coming forward. He needs this is where stuff gets a little bit. So in the 70s, he meets a 16 year old named Janice Hunter and he falls in love with her, she becomes his muse and a sexual obsession. His obsession with her as part of it is what leads to the writing and composition of the album, Let's Get It On, which is channeling the sexual revolution and this idea of like young love. So he gets the keys to the Cadillac at Motown, he renegotiates his contract. He gets his own studio and production company. And part of what we hear that I think makes his composition so beautiful. Steven, I love to hear what you think, but one of the things that he does that he's so good at is he layers five different vocal harmony parts in his music. And so when you're when you're listening to Marvin Gaye song and you hear the lead vocal and you hear all the ones in the back, oftentimes that's all him. And it's not just them repeating certain refrains, but it can be completely different lyrical content. People talk about Marvin Gaye being the split person, almost like a Gemini or maybe even having more personalities to him. And so you hear like the devil, the angel, the pragmatist, the dreamer, and all of his different vocals layered over these like five part harmonies, in his music. 

 Steven [00:21:19] Yeah. I mean, I love the I love the Marvin Gaye tracks where a lot of the instrumentation is to strip back and just gives space for his voice to just fill in the void, and you see this in a few different places. You know, like I think in What's Going On, you see this kind of layering of harmonies. And here's here's a short little clip of that 

 Marvin Gaye [00:21:48] Mother mother, everybody thinks we're wrong. 

 Steven [00:21:58] And that kind of like playing with the timing, doing like ad libs on the side, like sending messages in like, in the lowest of tones in the music. Maybe it's like not hearable once everything is pulled together, but like in individual parts, it's just adding these like little multiple layers, which is like incredible, incredible to do that in production when you're doing that just through voice. That's really cool. And and I think like would would definitely influence Hip-Hop later on because you hear that now, like ad libs are a thing. You know, rappers will will lay down their verses and then we'll do a whole track of ad libs where they're just like riffing and just like experimenting with different messages that they can send out. So those are the places where I think for me why some of Marvin Gaye's like earlier music didn't slap as much. Particularly because I think there was so much instrumentation focused around his voice that his voice just kind of got lost. He was just one in the bunch of the stable of Motown singers who were producing music at that time. And it's in the moments, I think, where he was able to really strip everything back and let his voice shine that I think we found we find some of his most iconic, you know, most iconic sounds.

 Brandi [00:23:15] Mmm that's so dope. That's an interesting breakdown. Yeah, so. I think, again, that's that's part of the reason why my dad loves him, why I love him. So he hits his stride in the 70s musically. But as far as his personal life, that's falling apart a little bit. So he's moved in at this point with Janis. He has two children with her. He's still married to Anna. And both he and Janice by this point have developed more of a hard core drug habit. He was a pot smoker for a lot of his life. But by the mid to late 70s, 80s and the cocaine angel dust is blowing money fast. He's making some bad investments. Anna is done. She wants out. He can't afford to pay alimony. So his lawyer comes up with this unorthodox agreement. Anna gets the proceeds from his next album. And the album he produces is is one of my dad's favorite albums. I remember listening to it. It's very lush, it's very 70s and explores the dark side of relationships, sexuality, obsession, fame, excess and how it tears people apart. If Let's Get It On is more the lightness of falling in love and loss. This album is like the crushing weight of love gone wrong. And it's interesting that you just talked about the composition piece because to me it reminds me of Kanye's album, My Dark, Twisted Fantasy. It has a lot of the similar thematics and gaudiness and cutting together of musical pieces. So we record this album Singing Out Anna's name in it, he's documenting the failures of their relationship. I imagine there's probably even some humiliating aspects to that, unfortunately. And then he titles the album Here, My dear. I do still think it's it's a great album, but obviously fraught. So he does that. They get divorced. He marries Janice after all of the lust and love and build up and kids. They're married for two years. It's a complete disaster. He has this way of completely undermining his own happiness and that duality inside him. The devil and the angel is like physically tearing him apart. And all of these ways, he's at odds with Motown. He owed money to the IRS. He loses everything. He moves to Belgium, he gets clean and he starts making music again. And I believe it's here that he record Sexual Healing. He has this uncertainty around whether or not he's still got it. Like whether or not the song will be a success. He's playing it for people. And he's just like, I don't know. But everybody's like, "Marvin, this song slaps". He's signed with CBS Records. He releases Sexual Healing. And it's a hit. At this time his mom is also sick. Because of that, he returns home back to the United States. Several of his friends, several of his friends say that they wish maybe that he had stayed in Europe or that he hadn't come back to the kind of heart of darkness or the place of his tension. But he comes home and he's he's just fallen deeper into drug use. There are people constantly coming in and out of the house at all times of day, women, drug dealers, hangers on. Paranoia is building up. An enemy thinks everyone's out to get them. He's constantly fighting with his dad. Then in April 1st, 1984, one day before what would have been his forty fifth birthday, Marvin wakes up to his dad. Yelling at his mom keeps escalating. Finally, Marvin Gaye breaks. He beats his dad up. It's something that he had been wanting to do his entire life. His dad gets a gun that Marvin Gaye bought for him, look him directly in the eye, shoots him three times. Some people have speculated that that Marvin Gaye didn't seem to want to be here anymore, that he was tired, that he was losing his spiritual struggle, and that he knew if he put his hands on his father that his father wouldn't let that stand. It's a common saying in black homes. I brought you in as well. I can take you out. It's often said in jest, at least a little bit tongue in cheek. But in this instance, his life is in there by his father. Marvin Gaye passes at the age of forty four April Fools Day, leaving behind his three children, Marvin, the third from Anna, Nona and Frankie, who he had with the second wife, Janice, and at the time of his death, he survived by his parents and his five siblings. That's the story of Marvin Gaye's life. But I do want to talk about the context in which he does the national anthem. So because the NBA All-Star Game happens in February 1983, normally we contextualize the year in which something came out. But we're going to take a look at1982 and a little bit of the beginning of 1983 to put into context Marvin Gaye's performance. So 1982, really important thing happens, the North Carolina Tar Heels win the NCAA Division one men's basketball tournament.  Leading that team to victory, someone who would go on to become the greatest basketball player in the history of the NBA without absolute question, Michael Jeffrey Jordan. So I want to take a moment to acknowledge that. Because we we have to pay respect. 

 Steven [00:28:22] Are you done? 

 Brandi [00:28:24] Do you have anything? Are you going to challenge me? 

 Steven [00:28:27] I'm not going to challenge you. I mean, get it out, get out of your system. Let's keep going. 

 Brandi [00:28:32] Yeah, because you can't. So others. I want to do this every time. So what other things happening in 1982? We've got the NFL strike, which is the first regular season strike by NFL players in history and ends on November 16 after fifty seven days. 

 Steven [00:28:52] Yeah, they're big highlights included Reagan declaring his war on drugs, which as we know now, would unleash like a massive wave of policing and criminalization in black and brown communities across the United States and and fuel the increased incarceration of black folks leading to mass incarceration and becoming the nation that over incarcerates its population more so than any other country in the world. 

 Brandi [00:29:20] We also have Eddie Murphy, who is pretty much single handedly playing Captain Save a Hoe over at Saturday Night Live. 

 Steven [00:29:27] We also saw on the political front the seminal case at the Supreme Court level, Plyler v. Doe, which decided the fact that states couldn't actually deny education to people based on their immigration status, which would come in handy when some of my family members would start going into the public school system just a few years later. 

 Brandi [00:29:52] You also have Wayne Williams being convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment for the 1981 killing of two men in Atlanta, Georgia. But the police believe that he is responsible for at least 23 to 30 Atlanta murders that take place between 1979 and 1981, known as the Atlanta Child Murders. And Wayne Williams is considered the first black serial killer. But there's a lot of question marks around whether or not the police did their due diligence there or if they were just eager to close the door to that. But in the 80s, in the early 80s, there's a lot of conversation happening about the Atlanta child murders and particularly about how much the public really cares about black children and what's happening to black children. Also in 1982, you have the murder of Vincent Chen is a 27 old Chinese-American. He's beaten unconscious by two white auto workers in Highland Park, Michigan, who think he's Japanese and think he's the cause of declining prosperity in the American auto industry. And Vincent Chin dies for years sorry, four days after after that vicious beating. In general, you have a severe economic recession that's happening. There were two recessions in this period. The first one was about six months in 1980, and then the second one was 16 months and lasted from 1981 to November 1982. The cause of this recession was raising interest rates that were done to combat inflation, but it reduced business spending. The Iranian oil embargo also aggravated economic conditions by reducing the US oil supply, which drove up prices. You see, also so there was a recession that happened in the 70s. So from an from an economic standpoint, it's a really dark time. We tend to talk about the 70s and 80s. I say, with a certain amount of levity, even when talking about some of the heavier aspects of things that happen in that time. But it is worth noting and remembering that this is a fairly dark and intense time. A lot of cultural content in the late 70s and early 80s reflects that people are losing their jobs, unions are declining, and the government, at least on the federal level, is not showing up for the common man. There's a spectacle around performed patriotism that's disconnected from the actual material aspects of life. And Steven and I know you checked out some other things that were going down around that time 

 Steven [00:32:22] On the cultural front, a couple of other things to highlight E.T. premieres in 1982. And we also see other kinds of shows that are reflective of the political and cultural moment, like Family Ties debut on TV, where Michael J. Fox plays this kind of like young young Republican fish out of water in a liberal family. Yeah, the premiere of Dukes of Hazzard, which as many folks know included, included the car with like the you know, the popularizing the Confederate flag on top of, like some some muscle car and normalizing, you know, these these just good ol boys going out and fighting crime. 

 Brandi [00:33:07] Wait so I have to add something, you know, because I think I'm not I think I'm supposed to feel shame around this. But when they when they did The Dukes of Hazzard remake with the dude from what's hi name, Johnny Knox or what's the dude from-- 

 Steven [00:33:21] Johnny Knoxville 

 Brandi [00:33:23] Yeah, the Jessica Simpson cover of these boots were made for walking. I enjoyed and I enjoyed the video, too, like I really thought it was. I really liked that version of these boots are-- not maybe not more than the original version, but I feel like she got unnecessarily shamed for that. And I just I feel like I wanted to put that Justice for Jessica plug out there before you move forward. Carry on

Steven [00:33:49] Keep a lookout for the Hulu series, the Hulu documentary series, Justice for Jessica coming out soon. 

 Brandi [00:33:58] So so the so the so the All-Star Game happens in, what the L.A.-- what's the L.A. arena called the like the what is it called 

 Steven [00:34:10] The Great Western Forum. 

 Brandi [00:34:13] OK, talk to me about that. 

 Steven [00:34:16] Yes. So the 1983 NBA All-Star Game where Marvin Gaye would go on to perform the national anthem was played in the Great Western Forum in Inglewood, California, which is in Los Angeles, home of the 17 time NBA champions, Los Angeles Lakers, a.k.a. the best there ever was, ever will be, and 2020 reigning NBA champions today. I'll get back to the NBA all star game in a sec, but I should say that I actually grew up like watching the Great Western Forum on TV, and I feel like it has to be in the top five iconic arenas, arenas of all time, like the best places to play basketball. It was a holy place for me, like seriously, the way that like the yellow would pop out on the edges of the court inside the key, the center court with like the round yellow, which was a different yellow than the jerseys. And like the simple forum logo. It was where the Showtime Lakers from Magic, Kareem with Worthy that's where they played. Now, this isn't a Lakers podcast. It should be. But the last thing I'll say-- 

 Brandi [00:35:35] It won't be, not never. Not never. Imma stop you there, Steven. 

 Steven [00:35:38] Fine, fine. The last thing I'll say is that the Forum was located in Inglewood, which was a black working class neighborhood of Los Angeles. It's south of downtown. It's south of Beverly Hills. It's south of Santa Monica. It's south of all the rich areas of Los Angeles. And which was cool because it meant that like all these rich people that wanted to see the best basketball team of all time, they had to go south to the real L.A. to watch these Lakers play. And I think that's part of why L.A. will always be a Laker town, no matter what amount of money Steve Ballmer drops on the Clippers. And he's actually trying to move the team to Inglewood. That's not going to help any. It's still going to be a Lakers town. 

 Brandi [00:36:22] You really tried that on the greatest team of all time, how many? 

 Steven [00:36:26] See, I already knew you knew you were going to do like Jordan and just take it personally. 

 Michael Jordan [00:36:30] It became personal with me in Chicago. 

 Brandi [00:36:35] We take like Chicagoans take stuff personally. 

 Steven [00:36:40] Obviously. All right. So the NBA all star game, the Eastern Conference, which features stars like Isaiah Thomas, Larry Bird, Dr. J. And Moses Malone, they faced off with the Western Conference, which featured stars like Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, George The Iceman Gervin. The Eastern Conference did win--- 

 Brandi [00:37:01] I was about to say who won 

 Steven [00:37:02] Yeah it was 132 to 123, which by today's standards would be a very low scoring affair. But Dr. J. Took home the MVP honors and was kind of a preview to what would happen in the playoffs that year. As Dr. J's 76ers Philadelphia 76ers would beat the Los Angeles Lakers in the NBA Finals. Tragic 

 Brandi [00:37:25] Hmm the greatest of all time got beat by the 76ers 

 Steven [00:37:29] Seventeen NBA championship. I mean it's the best team. Seventeen NBA champions. How many did Chicago have? Six 

 Brandi [00:37:37] A lot, enough, not enough. Never enough. Get more Chicago, rebuild. So question speculative question. How many lines do you think that all star players there with Marvin Gaye before they did the before he did the national anthem. 

 Steven [00:37:58] This explains why the Western Conference lost. 

 Brandi [00:38:00] I would think it'd make them better because they'd just be like speeding down the court. No?

 Steven [00:38:07] No, didn't help. 

 Brandi [00:38:10] Well, in any event. Now it's time to turn our attention to the national anthem. The national anthem was written in Baltimore, where I live by Francis Scott Key. I think he was hidden away in a cubbyhole or something, and he wrote a poem that had some racist lyrics in it. But anyway, if you are in Baltimore, there's a lot of national anthem or Star-Spangled Banner, let me say, stuff everywhere, like they really stan for this song and Francis Scott Key. Unfortunately for all of us, Francis Scott Key, shocker, horrible person. So Francis Scott Key was this very pious would be one way to describe it, proslavery district attorney in D.C. under President Andrew Jackson between 1833 to 1840. He served as the chief law enforcement officer in D.C. He presided over the daily enforcement of enslavement laws. In 1835 he also sought the death penalty for Arthur Bowen, a 19 year old enslaved man that was accused of trying to murder his enslaver. There was a lot of evidence that he was not responsible, but the D.A. still wanted to see him hang. So wrong-headed was the case that President Jackson had to actually pardon Bowen. And you know, you know how salty, President Jackson was that he had to do that. He was he was definitely not here for having to do that, but it was so egregious that it could not be denied. Francis Scott Key was somebody who thought that any black person who rebelled against bondage in any way, shape or form deserved the death penalty. So he was like, really not here for black people. He said, "the Negroes" and he said that with a really hard N and a G Negroes, "a distinct an inferior race of people, which all experience proved to be the greatest evil that afflicts a community." That's what he said about black people. Yeah, he wasn't cool. He was not cool. And you know what people at that time thought he wasn't cool. I always think it's astounding when when like when you go back years, like Jeff Sessions, like in 1980s, Jeff Sessions was too racist to be confirmed for any appointments under an administration. And yet was totally cool and chill, under a Trump. Same energy. Like Francis Scott Key, like at the time the Star Spangled Banner was so controversial it was not considered the national anthem. People were like, "we don't fuck with you". So instead, they use things like Hail Columbia. My Country Tis of Thee were some of the songs that people use. And it's actually not until after the Civil War that The Star-Spangled Banner begins to get official recognition, and it's because it is adopted by Southerners. So Southerners see this as a reconciliation of the north and the South and that reconciliation meeting, end of reconstruction era removal of all of the infrastructure that was set up in the South to defend the constitutional rights of black people, that this song was a marker of that unification happening or being able to continue to perpetuate a pro Confederate narrative through this music. So it's still pretty controversial up until the 1900s. It gets adopted by the Army first, which begins to require officers and enlisted men to stand at attention while it gets played. It becomes the national song of the US Armed Forces. Then you see advocacy kick in. So the Veterans of Foreign Affairs and the United Daughters of the Confederacy began to mobilize and launch petition drives around, designating The Star-Spangled Banner as the one and only true national anthem. And in nineteen thirty one, Congress goes along with this. So this is like a neo Confederate song. When it became the official song of the country and supporters threw a victory parade in Baltimore on June 1931, the march was led by a color guard that was hoisting a Confederate flag. So from jump this song has been fuckery. I cannot say it enough. Always has been. Always will be. That does not take away from the argument that I'm going to make about why the 1983 rendition from Marvin Gaye is a national anthem that America wants, needs and deserves. But we need to be clear that this is some trash can trash happening and that it is a Confederate victory that we all feel obligated to stand and engage with this as a national anthem. 

 Steven [00:43:03] Can I can I compound to the trashery because apparently this - and I didn't know this until I started researching for this episode, but The Star-Spangled Banner is actually just a - is a remix of a different song that was created for a gentlemen's club in London called The Anachreonistic Society, and the song was called To Anacreon in Heaven. It was a drinking song that they would sing like and they would get together and do their thing. And it sounded a little bit something like this. And it'll sound very familiar 

 American Music Institute [00:43:42] To Anacreon in Heav'n, where he sat in full Glee. A few songs of harmony sent a petition. That he their Inspirer and Patron would be. When this answer arriv'd from the Jolly Old Grecian. Voice, fiddle and flute. No longer be mute. I'll lend you my name and inspire you to boot.

 Steven [00:44:02] so, so basically Francis Scott Key just did basically what Kanye West did when with rich boys throw some D on it. He just made a remix. That's all he did. That's what this song is, is ridiculous. I didn't know this. It's a drinking song. 

 Brandi [00:44:18] So anyway, let's move back to how, so Marvin Gaye does the rendition of the national anthem. It is an instant panty dropper. The ladies are screaming. I think they're ladies. They may not all be ladies. I'm sorry if I if that was sexist of me to assume they were all ladies, but some high pitched screaming that sounded like uteruses blowing up in flames during the national anthem. After hearing it Los Angeles Lakers coach Pat Riley said, quote, "I morphed into an American". And I feel that too, like the most American that I've felt in the United States, is when this version of the national anthem is playing like it's like that true moment of, yeah, I fuck with America. It's also got like some 808 composition vibe to it. Steven, talk to me a little bit more about that as the resident D.J.. 

 Steven [00:45:19] Yes. So the percussion background to Marvin Gaye's national anthem is clearly from a Roland TR-808. I made my own little version, and that just gives you like a a stripped down version of what it sounded like. And the cool thing about the performance, like just to lay it out there, you see kind of like sashays his way up to the microphone. It's not like he's at the microphone already. They introduce him and he just kind of starts strolling and he's gliding over to the microphone and the backing band just knew exactly when to, like, kick in for him to just like kick off with the song. Anyways, it's made with the with a Roland TR-808. The TR-808 was made by a Japanese company called Roland and is probably the most popular drum machine ever. And we could look today at the list of top 40 tracks. We could probably find many songs that feature sounds inspired by this original drum machine. A lot of hip hop producers have used the kind of deep rumbling notes of the drum kicks to create the iconic baselines. Think of like Outkast's The Way You Move. And it has that opening bassline, the boom boom boom, that's like all taken from like that 808 sound super rumbly, the kind of thing that you could be bumping in your in your car. And it would just make the windows like rattle. That's the iconic 808 sound. But there are also other sounds that there were featured inside of the today, which I'll talk about. You had Kanye, who produced a whole album kind of inspired by 808, 808s and Heartbreaks. But the 808's first big break was actually Marvin Gaye because he used it for what would turn out to be his most commercially successful song, Sexual Healing, which was released in nineteen eighty two. And it's actually incredible to think how coincidental that was. In 1981 after releasing his last album with the Motown label In Our Lifetime, he wasn't happy with how the album had turned out. And you've gone into depth about like some of the some of the tensions between Marvin Gaye and Motown and that would be essentially their last album together. He signed a new deal with Columbia and at this time was also struggling with depression, substance abuse, and like you said, found, you know, found a way to get away and moved out to Belgium. And it was there that he got to work on the album that would become Midnite Love, which would contain Sexual Healing. And it turns out in the studio that the record label had arranged for him to work in. And Belgium, it actually had a TR-808 and he liked it because he could replicate a lot of elements of reggae and Caribbean music that he'd heard while touring in Europe. And cause the 808 contained builtin sounds like the clave, the high, the mid and the low tom's, he could also work on most of the album by himself, you know, which was his preference at the time because he was just kind of done dealing with other musicians and other people. He was into depth of his depression and he felt like he just really needed to get away. This drum machine gave him the opportunity to create the arrangements himself. And so the 808 as part of his performance for the national anthem, I think is part of what makes this version stand out. And with the drum machine, you can add subtle layers, but but leave it like I was talking about earlier, really stripped down and just allow Marvin Gaye's incredible voice to do the rest. 

 Brandi [00:48:55] Yeah. So I really want to double down on that because it is innovative that he brings in this 808. The 808 have been introduced in '79 as this tool for professional musicians to record demos, and it was starting to cease production on the machine as it was getting picked up in these other musical forms so it gets picked up. Afrika Bambaataa works with a producer in an 808 to record Planet Rock, which is one of the most influential tracks in the history of hip hop, techno and electro music. He is also, I believe, a convicted child molester. So I do put an asterisk by that. But Planet Planet Rock was a highly influential song. It also held heavy influence in Chicago and was being picked up by Chicago DJs like Jesse Saunders, who are using second hand 808s to make Chicago house music. So this is definitely one of the most influential machines. And the fact that he's using it at that point in time is like what makes it such a cutting edge performance moment. So in terms of the reaction to the national anthem, it was mixed. Some white people allegedly were hating because some white people allegedly hate #NotAllWhitePeople. Formers Lakers promotional director Lon Rosen said that CBS and league officials were really angry with the performance. Some of them were booing at the time. I think their sounds were drowned out by the spontaneous orgasms that were happening by some of the women in the arena. But nevertheless, they were they were not happy. There were some different newspaper op eds complaining about the corruption of the national anthem. And again, given all the history that we've laid out about it, this is a very dubious at best claim. But this is something that we've seen happen again and again whenever artists of color, you know, experiment with The Star-Spangled Banner and how it's being delivered. So whether we're talking about Jose Feliciano or Jimi Hendrix or others, there's always this immediate backlash. Members of Congress and advocacy groups have tried to pass legislation requiring that The Star-Spangled Banner be performed in a specific way. But in modern times, Marvin Gaye's rendition has become more mainstream. Part of the softening probably comes from the fact that it is one of the final public performances we see from Marvin Gaye before his father kills him. But also the song slaps, and it's not long before it starts popping up in these commercial or commodified spaces. Actually, when VH1 launched in January 1st, 1985, Marvin Gaye's 1983 rendition of the national anthem Star-Spangled Banner was the first video that they aired. So almost immediately it does resonate with people, and particularly for a lot of communities of color and Black people, you see, and a lot of counter letters to the editor and different responses that this really feels like a moment of solidarity and a feeling like really understanding that the Star Spangled Banner could be for us in a way that we may not always feel when it's performed in a specific way by other artists. 

 Steven [00:52:22] So there's no disagreement between you and I that Marvin Gaye's version of The Star-Spangled Banner is good. But as we step into the next segment, what's the argument that you're trying to make? 

 Brandi [00:52:33] I am saying. Am I gonna go hard on this. Because I was I want to say it's the only version of the national anthem that truly matters, but I feel like that's a setup if I actually say that. So I am going to say that I believe that this version of the national anthem is the one that America truly deserves, that we as a multicultural society deserved to feel a certain amount of remixed, innovative sexiness about our anthem. So that's my argument. 

 Steven [00:53:10] I can't wait to debate you on this because you are so wrong. 

 Steven [00:53:16] There is an anthem that America deserves. And I'll tell you what that is in the next segment. Good luck. 

 Brandi [00:53:23] I don't need luck, bro. I've got receipts. 

 Steven [00:53:27] Yeah, we'll see about your receipts. 

 Brandi [00:53:43] And we are back and joined by our guest, Matt Howard, Matt is currently the national organizer for communications with the Right to the City Alliance. He is a member and for seven years served as co-director of About Face Veterans Against the War, previously known as Iraq Veterans Against the War. Their mission is to mobilize the military community against militarism at home and abroad. Prior to being co-director, Matt served as chapter president in the Bay Area local organizer in Texas with the Operation Recovery Campaign and as Communications Director, Matt also served in the Marine Corps as a helicopter mechanic from 2001 to 2006 and was deployed twice to Iraq, where he became deeply opposed to the occupations and discovered a commitment to social change work. And the reason why I picked him as a judge is because in the first episode I picked Kwesi, who was a judge in our Soul Man episode, and he turned out to be a complete Judas. He exhibited anti black women bias. Whereas Turner,

 Steven [00:54:51] Wow how are you going to do that to Kwesi was fair and balanced. 

 Brandi [00:54:55] Kwesi, I love you, but whatever war is war, man, no, that's not true. Actually, that's a really bad metaphor for this episode. But whereas Turner was I found to be very fair, very levelheaded. And so given the fact that I think Steven's friends are better than mine, I'm going to roll the dice again with one of his friends. Beyond that, we're talking about the Star Spangled Banner, and that brings a lot of knowledge and experience to the table to really help us wade through this discussion on patriotism, militarism and pop culture. So thank you, Matt, for being with us. 

 Matt Howard [00:55:27] Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me. 

 Steven [00:55:30] I just remind you, Matt, that I took you on an incredible taco tour of Los Angeles, which you probably dream about. 

 Matt Howard [00:55:37] I remember. Of course, especially during this pandemic when we've all been shut indoors, all the wonderful outdoor street tacos that we had. I'll just remind you that I, I gave you that experience. I did the same thing for you, Brandi. But you're not as appreciative. 

 Brandi [00:55:50] I was going to say you did take me on that bomb taco tour, and I appreciate that.

 Matt Howard [00:55:55] Yeah, no, it was deep. I feel like I've been I've been missing all kinds of street food during this pandemic. 

 Brandi [00:56:03] Well, after I win this, if you're ever in Chicago, I can take you for some good street food. Matt, thank you. So talk to us about right to the city in the work that you're currently doing there. 

 Matt Howard [00:56:17] Yeah, Right to the City Alliance is a national network of more than 90 housing justice organizations across the country. More recently we've been focused on cancelling rent and really trying to support the tens of millions of folks who are really rent insecure right now. And, you know, obviously people are struggling financially. And so far, the government has not really stepped in in any kind of meaningful way to support folks who are in those positions. So, yeah, canceling rent and mortgages in the moment. And yeah, it's I feel really honored to be a part of that work and to support folks who are on the front lines was like important worth. 

 Steven [00:57:01] Yeah. Shout out to Right to the City Alliance. Wonderful organization folks to check it out. You know, Matt, in the last segment we were talking about the fact that the subject of our topic for today, Marvin Gaye, had actually had served some time in the military and received the 214 dishonorable discharge. And just to close the loop on that, neither of us really knew what that meant. I'm hoping you might be able to provide a quick explanation on what that is, how common it is. And, you know, and what sort of implications does that sort of dishonorable discharge have to things like benefits for veterans or does it? 

 Matt Howard [00:57:39] Yeah, so so I did some quick research just because I was trying to figure out what was going on with his discharge. So DD 214 is basically the piece of paper they give you when you get out of the military. It means that you served and then allows you access to veterans benefits and stuff like that. So I don't think he actually received a dishonorable discharge. Dishonorable discharge is pretty bad. Like you killed somebody or something like that. Like it will affect your life pretty much the rest of your life. He got a general discharge. And what that kind of means is, I think the reading, tI actually found it on the Internet, reading the general discharge, the kinds of ways that he would probably be labeled now are like these kind of weird Orwellian terms, like failure to adapt or having a personality disorder. Basically, he just wasn't interested in playing the military's game and they kept trying to discipline him and then finally were like, all right, it's not worth our time messing with you. Then he got out. General discharge can be bad or it can be good, but it doesn't really, depending on how long you're in you still have access to VA benefits. 

 Brandi [00:58:49] Hmm, that's interesting. Thank you for doing that research. You were 17 when you enlisted in the Marine Corps, which I didn't even know you could do it that young, to be honest. But like what it is like even in what you said, it just reminds me that there's like a lot of kids in the military. So what made you join at 17? 

 Matt Howard [00:59:10] Well, this is this was before September 11th. I ended up going to boot camp like a month after September 11th. So I had pretty bad timing. But, you know, I think I joined because I wanted to be able to, like, take the burden off of paying for school off my family, even though they could afford it. A lot of it had to do with things around masculinity and discipline and a sense that this is the place that I'm going to be able to to to be more disciplined, that kind of thing. And yeah, I mean, the 17 thing is where my dad had to help sign the contract. The United States is one of the few countries that lets people, unless that really they don't sign the UN Convention for Rights of the Child or something like that because of that reason. So probably too early for someone to make a decision like that. But at the time, it's what I felt like. I felt like it was going to straighten me out. 

 Brandi [01:00:08] I mean, and the other thing that that reminds me of is that there has been a lot of these different conversations and critiques of military recruitment tactics using video games and platforms like Twitter. It's funny, my brother was actually a military recruiter, and one time he told me while he was recruiting someone, a kid that was working at McDonald's. And it was very disturbing. But that's a side note. Do you think it's a major issue, this recruitment of using video games and platforms? Is this something people should be paying attention to? Do you think it's up to corporations or the government to regulate that more? 

 Matt Howard [01:00:41] Yeah, I mean, it's a good question on who should regulate. I mean, yeah, I think that, you know, this is a strategy the military has been using for a while, right? They figured out that they could get way more bang for their buck by creating video games like Call of Duty style video games or straight up paying those video games to put their content in there, as opposed to 20 second commercials. They have hours and hours of people engaging with it. So it's kind of creepy, I think. I mean, I have sympathy for people who are in a recruiter position because they're kind of in a damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you don't make your numbers, your career is over. And you know a lot of people that's like their livelihood, right? And, yeah, I don't know. I think that the military has basically found wherever their audiences rights. It's like not just young men, but young people who they think like will be receptive to their to their message or they're going to they're going to like work on them to make them receptive to their message, right? So now we're going to be talking about sports. But, yeah, I mean, I think they they see they see both Hollywood, which that's been a long time relationship, but yet, like, you know, E-Sports and all that kind of stuff, they see I think it's like an emerging market for them. 

 Steven [01:01:56] And same thing with movies, you know, and I think that's where we start to see kind of a shifting of movies and TV, like a shifting of relationship between military and the creation of cultural products like movies and TV shows, where there's more willingness to collaborate and kind of shape the message and representation that goes out, you know, almost as like a direct response to the ways in which culture was not as kind to the military during during Vietnam. You know, speaking of sports, as we kind of start to delve into kind of the central topic of of our debate here today. So we're talking about the national anthem gets played, obviously at the beginning of any major sports event. Even non major sports events like I was probably a kid in Little League Baseball and we were like singing The Star-Spangled Banner, 

 Brandi [01:02:46] but you said non sports events. And then you said Little League is your -

 Steven [01:02:48] Non major, non major, although I should have kept at major events because, you know, I was a I was a pretty good baseball player when I was young. But, you know, I think we've come to associate The Star-Spangled Banner with American patriotism. If we didn't understand the history, you would think that, like The Star-Spangled Banner has been our national anthem since, like its founding from the very first days. And that's just hasn't been true. And it also hasn't been the official like national anthem of the United States, first real recorded kind of moment in which a president said, like, this is a this is a song that we will play at the beginning of certain rituals was back in the early 1900s with Woodrow Wilson, who ordered that it be played at all like military ceremonies and for other kinds of appropriate occasions. And then we see as part of World War I, a reaction here at home, Major. League Baseball requiring out of a sense of like patriotism in that time period to play the national anthem before all baseball games. So let's you know, we fast forward to today, and it's just this tradition that has persisted for decades now. And in moments like we saw over the last few years with protests, particularly in response to police violence, where the national anthem has been, this kind of flash point moment to also protest and seeing the reaction from folks who believe that it's such sacred ground that how dare you protest in the context of such a sacred song. But I am curious, like from your vantage point and having done the work that you've done with with veterans, the relationship between sports and the military, where do you see that fitting in to kind of the larger problem of a society that has been largely shaped by the military industrial complex to believe that the military is kind of is conflated with being good? 

 Matt Howard [01:04:46] I mean, I think you're going to attack a bunch of different ways. One of it is I think that they just see a big market, right? They see a bunch of potential folks that are would be interested or available to join the military. That's right there. I think that they're touching on a lot of, like, cultural kind of kind of, you know, it's like American as Apple or, you know, as a baseball being, as American as apple pie, things like that, right? Like, how do we kind of like take these, like, patriotic symbols and then, like, make them so close to the military that you actually can't separate them? You know, I think that it's like caught up in masculinity, too, in some ways. Not that it has to be that across the board, but I think some of that's playing out in some of it. I kind of remember a shift after September 11th, like I grew up watching football as a kid. And and, you know, there would always be an honor guard, but not quite the like dog and pony show of the Jets flying over the stadium like there felt like there was this like ramping up of it. And, you know, I have to wonder how much of that was also an understanding on some of the part of the military that, like the this kind of like post September 11 thing, it was going to only work for so long and then people are going to real tired of it. And, you know, as demonstrated by I think I read somewhere that in 2008 they spent something like $666 billion dollars in advertising alone.  And that was like right at the surge where I was starting to get really unpopular. You know, people were like, I don't want my kids to go out to this war that doesn't make any sense at this moment, you know, and you know, that's a lesson they learned in Vietnam. They did a big they did a big kind of like assessment. And they were like, we lost because we lost the media war. 

 Steven [01:06:36] Yeah, it's so interesting. It's funny because I was just watching a video with Trevor Bauer, who's a pitcher for the Dodgers now, and he does a lot of vlogging. And he was vlogging like a day around opening day. And he was asking a bunch of the Dodgers baseball players like their favorite part about opening day. And I would say probably like a third of them mentioned the military flyover as like the thing that is most iconic for them or the most favorite thing about opening day. It's like so entrenched now among baseball in particular. But I would I would imagine, like in other sports as well, like. There's just this closeness of relationship. And I think you're right. There's this thing of like at a certain point you don't really know where where sports ends in the military begins because there's such a tight relationship. 

 Matt Howard [01:07:24] Yeah, and it's like the digital camo uniforms and like they're trying to trying to make that as close as possible until they're almost indistinguishable right? And, you know, I think that that's like been part of their recruiting stuff, too. It's like, do you want to be an athlete, like come and be a Navy SEAL? Even though most of you are not going to be Navy SEALs, most of you are going to be busting rust on boats or whatever it is, right? But that same kind of idea of like come and be a super human with us. 

 Brandi [01:07:50] Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean, it's weird because I know I go to a lot of sporting events, or at least I did before the end of the world. And it is even even with all the protests and doing a lot of work around the protests and kneeling and all of that stuff during the national anthem, it gets really hard to just sit there when the national anthem starts. I definitely feel the peer pressure to have to stand, even if I don't believe in it. It's just kind of wild how much we we all feel so wrapped up in that culture even as we're fighting against it. 

 Steven [01:08:22] Do you remember that one time, Brandi, we went to Dodger Stadium to watch that game and they had speaking of symbols, they had the eagles and stuff. They were like going to fly over the stadium and they had like the handler down in like in the field. And the Eagles just like booked it just left 

 Brandi [01:08:40] He wanted to be free. 

 Steven [01:08:43] That was pretty hilarious. 

 Brandi [01:08:45] Yeah.

 Brandi [01:08:47] So you heard the Marvin Gaye rendition of The Star-Spangled Banner, I believe. But your first time hearing it was in preparation for this episode, Matt, correct. 

 Matt Howard [01:08:57] That is true. Yep. 

 Brandi [01:08:58] OK, so where does this rank amongst the different versions that you've heard for you? And which ones would you say get an honorable mention of ones that you're kind of like, oh, yeah, I fuck with this a little bit. 

 Matt Howard [01:09:13] I mean, it's a good question, I feel like I'm, you know, not to question your choice of judge, but I'm not the best person to go to and to, you know, give the variety of sports Star Spangled Banner as I feel like. Yeah, it's it's like the coolest one that I've heard. But I can't I feel like I can think of that Star Spangled Banners that I've heard or just kind of like, you know, oh, this is like an iconic person that's doing it and has their take on it, but not so many. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's like all those associations with like all the patriotic music, we we've been doing this check in question at work recently, which is what is like a song that you really can't stand and the one that keeps coming up for me. I don't actually know who does it, but it's this like this like uber patriotic song. It's not a it's not a like part of a canon of US exceptional songs, but it's like a country song about like "and I'll stand by her side til she" I don't know if you know what I'm talking about, but 

 Brandi [01:10:16] is it a Toby Keith one? 

 Matt Howard [01:10:18] Yes, that's it. It's, it was everywhere. 

 Brandi [01:10:23] Everywhere the like. Sorry. Go ahead. 

 Matt Howard [01:10:26] No, go for it. 

 Brandi [01:10:28] I was going to say the reason why I know this shit is because my dad bought that CD after 9/11 and we had the biggest fight about it. I was like, why? I was like, the song is not good. Lyrically it's bad. This sucks. Like, why are you into this song? 

 Matt Howard [01:10:47] Everything that song summed up for me was just like that post 9/11 period where I was like like as especially as I was starting to be even prior to me being politicized, I was like, this song sucks. Everything it stands for sucks. And these like honky tonk bars that I've been that are like people are really into this song that kind of sucks to, you know, like, yeah. 

Brandi [01:11:09] Well, do you have wait. So do you have a song? I know we have to move forward that it's like it's not really OK for me to like this song, but I do kind of a little bit like this song. 

Matt Howard [01:11:20] Oh yeah. I'm sure. I'm sure like dozens of them. Am I going to be able to recall them right now? Not because I would be ashamed of them, but just because I have a terrible memory. Maybe not. I mean, I don't know. There's like a ton of misogynistic stuff, I grew up listening to that I still, you know, I was still mess with and listen to, but like, I'm like 

Steven [01:11:44] You're still messing with Sisqo, the Thong Song. That's still. 

Brandi [01:11:47] Is the thong song problematic? 

Steven [01:11:47] It's not problematic 

Brandi [01:11:50] I don't think it's problematic. 

Steven [01:11:52] It's not I actually watched the whole documentary on it. It's pretty interesting. 

Brandi [01:11:55] There's a whole documentary about the Thong Song? 

Steven [01:11:57] There is. It's only 20 minutes, but it's a documentary. 

Matt Howard [01:12:03] Yeah, no, I wish I could pull something really definitive right now, but I think I'm going to disappoint. 

Steven [01:12:12] OK, but were you were you into Fergie's version of the national anthem, 

Matt Howard [01:12:18] No.

Matt Howard [01:12:40] No, and to be honest, when I watched it again, just to refresh myself, I was like. Knowing this context, you know, listening to now to the Marvin Gaye song, I was like, was she trying to, like, do her own kind of version of it? It's like, sure, she trying to stake out some sort of territory. This is like my weird, like, jazz club crooner sexy version of it, because that that's what it felt like was in our head. I don't know if that's what was was the logic behind it, but then it was awful. 

Brandi [01:13:16] Well, we're going to get started with our back and forth. So for those of you listening for this battle, we provided Matt with a scorecard. And we have five criteria that we use. Each one is on a scale of one to five with one being terrible and five being excellent. And so Matt will be judging each of us on creativity, receipting energy and the viability of our argument. And then he'll be judging us on our rebuttal. So we'll go back and forth, we'll make our points. We'll do a rebuttal, and then Matt will let us know how we did and what he thought. So I'm going to get into my three points. And I am arguing that Marvin Gaye's rendition of the national anthem is the one that America and that we all deserve. And I'm going to be making three arguments. So before I start, are you a fan of Murs, Steven? 

Steven [01:14:14] Yeah, he's got the song, L Dot A Dot that I really love. 

Brandi [01:14:18] Yeah. So I did this for you, that L.A. that L.A. vibe. So I'm going to kick it off with something that Mirza's talked about. So so I think this rendition of the national anthem follows in the grand tradition of claiming our story and the broader story of America through the hijacking of white norms and institutions. And Murs talks about the development of hip hop and black culture in America. He talks about black people in the Americas, our group of people stripped of our original African cultures and names forced to conjure a new identity and a new set of cultural norms that are a mash up of history and current circumstances. We take pieces of what we can remember from our old world, and we intwine them with what we are expected to accept in this world. Moreover the creation of new cultures and subcultures are often about turning a negative into a positive. So in Hip-Hop, often this is the art of taking the crude resources at our disposal. So turning walls into canvases for graffiti art or turning in black culture, what's considered inedible, unwanted scraps from the main house into coveted soul food dishes. And that's who we are in our different cultures. That's what we do. In this country that's shaped by nationalism and unwavering patriotism, people that have come to this country willingly and unwillingly have each played a role in defining America for better or worse. This is not just a country for some or for them, but for us. The Star-Spangled Banner, with its fraught history, has been deemed the story of us. But it does not have to be confined to the specific standards that they said. It can and should be redone, remixed, shaped in our own image, and that's what Marvin Gaye has done with the beauty and simplicity of an 808 an unparalleled swagger and aesthetic black power vibe. What we're witnessing is Marvin Gaye flipping the narrative on what defines America. He makes a, he doesn't just make it a remix, but a whole new song in a way that I would argue that Jimi Hendrix and Jose Feliciano do not. The 808 is is being used at this moment, which we talked about in the earlier segment, his use of the 808 is very symbolic. The 808 at this moment in 1980s is being used to shape and define both hip hop and house music to art forms that are shaped by mashup of Black, American, Latino, Caribbean and African cultures and driven by LGBTQ subcultures and nightlife. And he's laying down vocals that are born out of the culture, black churches and juke joints. And he's saying that we too sing America. And I, for one, am here for that. And I think that folk should be, too. And that and that's what makes this particular that's one reason why I think this particular rendition of the national anthem is so radical and interesting and one that we should embrace. Argument, two, is that it's a form of protest against repressive systems and it's a sort of spiritual ancestor, I guess one could say, to Colin Kaepernick kneeling. So one of the things that Marvin Gaye has said in the past, quote, "An artist, if he's truly an artist, is only interested in one thing, and that is to wake up the minds of men, to have mankind and womankind realized that there is something greater than what we see on the surface." I think that's his general approach to all cultural content that he makes. When we watch Marvin Gaye doing The Star-Spangled Banner in 1983, what we're watching is a protest. We see someone who's done several iterations of this song and we see just like he's gone in this kind of journey of disillusionment. And who. Music from Stuben kind of fellow to what's going on, we see that same thing happening each time he does the national anthem. So he's done it on many occasions. He did it in in 1979 at Caesar's Palace during a boxing match. He did it during a Raiders game. The first time he does it is in game four of the 1968 World Series between the Detroit Tigers and the St. Louis Cardinals. And he does it in this very, basically the straightest way he does it in that same series in game five, young singer Jose Feliciano performs the national anthem with this like slow or brooding twist. And it immediately leads to this backlash. And it's said that this backlash actually derails his Grammy laden career for decades. So he actually has to like rebuild his career to come back from this moment of doing this radical national anthem. Marvin Gaye was no doubt aware of that, seeing that in his own career and had to worry about his own potential backlash. But what we see in the last chapter of his life is Marvin Gaye being fixated on this idea of freedom, political freedom, artistic freedom, sexual freedom. And we're seeing that be deliberately channeled into every facet of his life with intention. He spent years fighting with his record label to tell the stories he wants to tell. He's still confined to certain standards and expectations from record labels, but he uses the power that he has, his voice and his musicality in the same way that Colin Kaepernick uses his body to protest the idea that America can be better and that we can be better. And that, to me, is is part of why I think that this is a national anthem. That is the one that we should embrace is the one that we deserve. I think this rendition is most reflective of the type of radical politics that doesn't ask for entry or acceptance. When you look at versions like Whitney Houston's, like I get chills, but it definitely feels more like a plea to America to see us as also being American. And for this, this is more of a demand like, fuck you, this is who we are. We are here, deal with it. So that's the other reason why I think it's so important. Also, my last reason why I think it's important is because it just fucking slaps. It is the only version of The Star-Spangled Banner that could be seamlessly integrated into a deejay set at a barbecue and wouldn't get a lot of side eye. We can like do the the all sorts of like slow jam dancing to it. It just works in all facets of our life in the way that The Star-Spangled Banner typically does not. And so these are my three arguments. Why I think that this is actually The Star-Spangled Banner in the national anthem or I should say national anthem that we deserve and that we should no longer continue to do it by other other ways of people doing it. 

Steven [01:20:42] Well, it's it's nice that you think that. All right. So let me just go ahead and dive in some glad I'm glad you talked about the aspirational nature of what Marvin Gaye's version of the national anthem is communicating and evoking. My first argument against you is going to be that I think a lot of great culture, particularly culture coming from oppressed people, is in some part shaped by being able to speak and reflect the reality of their experience, be it in black culture and Latinx culture. And I'll give some some good examples of this. Like I think the iconic albums we think about with R&B artists like Stevie Wonder, is Innervisions, a clear reflection of the political times. When we think about the era of blaxploitation films, you know, wonderful musicians like Isaac Hayes and Curtis Mayfield with Shaft and with Superfly, respectively, like a lot of what made those albums memorable was the instrumentation in the music, but lyrically, like the content of what it was reflecting a certain perspective and experience that was invisible in the wider culture we saw this in and the rise of salsa in the early 1970s. You know, like Willie Colon had a song called Plastica where he was, it was a rejection of capitalism. You know so I would say like the iconic things we think about with culture and what culture can do is when you're from oppressed people is speak to a reality. You know, that's why Marvin Gaye's album was called What's Going On. It wasn't called Here's What It Should Be, that I think culture that speaks to the experiences of the oppressed I think is is necessary. The other argument I would make is that I think speaking speaking along those lines, we need a national anthem and a version of The Star-Spangled Banner that really represents the fucked up nature of what America has meant. For many people, not just here in the United States, but across the world. So I wanted to share with you a couple versions that I thought, you know, really reflect. I think the the innermost feelings that come up for me when I think about the United States, you know, as someone who I'm Salvadoran American, my family came the United States during the 1980s because of the Civil War. The United States was actively involved in training a lot of our military down in El Salvador, a lot of our death squads, all of the all the messed up things that the United States. I have certain feelings. And and I want those feelings reflected when I am listening to the The Star-Spangled Banner. So my first version is Carl Lewis. His rendition of The Star-Spangled Banner, I think is a great reflection of of what of what America means to a lot of people. And here's a clip O. 

Carl Lewis [01:23:43] Oooooooh. Oh, say can you see? And the rocket's red glare? Uh oh, I'll make up for it now. For the land of the free.

Steven [01:24:12] That that's that describes probably my mom's experience coming to the United States. There was like a lot of promise at the very beginning. Oh, OK. And then it just went downhill from there. So that's that's one version. I think the other version out there, out there that's probably a better reflection of America is Roseanne's version that she performed at at the beginning before a baseball game in San Diego. It was a San Diego Padres game. And this was Roseanne's version of the national anthem.

Roseanne [01:24:46] Oh say, can you see. By the dawns early light. What's so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming. Whose brought stripes and bright stars. Through the perilous fight. O'er the ramparts we watched, were so galantly streaming. And the rockets red glare the bombs bursting in air. Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there. Oh say does that Star spangled banner yet wave. For the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Brandi [01:25:14] You gonna play the whole thing? Wow. 

Steven [01:25:29] This is America. 

Brandi [01:25:34] This is actively traumatizing and. 

Steven [01:25:46] I mean, this is there's no better representation in the United States and as a. As a neighbor in the global community, this is how we show up to places, we're just super obnoxious. And I should add, if folks watch the YouTube video of this performance, Rosanne ends it by like doing like the some sort of like X-Pac type thing from wrestling, just like doing a little like little grabbing her crotch and stuff at the crowd. Like, forget y'all. So, yeah, that that's I think that's a very reflective rendition of what the United States is like. So that's my second argument. I do think that we need renditions that actually of the Star Spangled Banner that could speak a little more in alignment with how the United States is both here in the United States and abroad. But lastly, I think if The Star-Spangled Banner is not your jam, I think there are other songs out there that could be a better representation of the kind of national anthem that we deserve, which might help to address some of what you were talking about, Brandi, a little bit earlier, which is like there, is an awkwardness when I go to my Dodgers game and I love my Dodgers, but I don't like to get up and I don't like to take off my hat when they start playing The Star-Spangled Banner, I might feel differently if they played some different songs. So here are three songs that I think could be better versions of this, of the national anthem for us, given the fact that, like, we've only really had The Star-Spangled Banner as the official national anthem for 70, 80 years, like we could probably switch it up if we wanted to. So my first one is Billy Joel's We Didn't Start The Fire. Here's like the hook for it, which I think is very reflective again, of the United States performance in the war in the world. "We didn't start the fire. It was always burning since the world's been turning. We didn't start the fire. No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it." That's the United States in a nutshell. They never like to take responsibility for anything. It's never their fault. It's never anything that they did. But they're very much responsible. But I do think it's reflective of the kind of spirit that lives within the United States. My second one is Smash Mouth's All Star. "Somebody once told me the world is gonna roll me. I ain't the sharpest tool in the shed. She was looking kind of dumb with her fingers and a thumb in the shape of an L. in her forehead." Now, nothing about that is really relevant to U.S. history, but the song is just annoying as hell and I think would be an appropriate rendition. It would be an appropriate song to play at the beginning of sporting events just to remind ourselves of where we're at? And then I did put on my list Toby Keith, Red, White and Blue, some I can't remember what the with the parentheses of the title is, but "American girls and American guys will always stand up and salute, will always recognize when we see old glor flying. There's a lot of man dead so he can sleep in peace at night when we laid down our head" I'm fine with that playing at the beginning of sporting events, because I'm going to feel less awkward if I don't stand up and take off my hats. So those are some renditions there that I think about. And then lastly, my last thing before I turn it back to you, Brandi, for a rebuttal is I actually think the best rendition of the current version of the national anthem is Jimi Hendrix's version that he performed at Woodstock 1969, I want to say. But Jimi Hendrix's version of The Star-Spangled Banner at Woodstock, I think is the best version of of this song because he did the thing of reflecting the reality of the moment. One of the things that he does so uniquely is in the section of the song where it talks about "and the rockets red glare, the bombs bursting in air". He takes that moment to kind of step aside and just do this kind of guitar riff that mimics the sound of bombs like bursting and landing in places. And this is at a time period at the height of Vietnam, at the height of anti the anti-war movement against Vietnam, such a clear reflection of what was happening in that moment, in those times, which I think is so beautifully done in the context of this music festival. So let me play that. In that version, he just represents the chaos, the destruction, the the actual impact of the United States stepping into the global community and engaging in global conflicts and facilitating the destruction that we saw in Vietnam and in Cambodia and other parts of the region. Chaos and devastation that people are still wrestling with and dealing with to this day. There are still bombs that are being found in that region. So I think for that reason, I think Jimi Hendrix's version is the best version that's ever been performed of this particular song. And I think a real reflection of what this song really means and signifies for this country. 

Brandi [01:31:25] OK, thank you. After listening to the national anthem that many times, I think I'm pretty much don't have to worry about not standing again because I don't think I'm going to ever want to listen to it again after this. But my rebuttal, I have a couple of rebuttals. So I think if the argument here is that we should get rid of the The Star-Spangled Banner as the quote unquote, national anthem. I don't disagree with you. I think we talked about earlier all of the problems with the history of it, what it means, like how it's used, how it's weaponized, how it how this like sort of performative patriotism tends to make a resurgence around wartime. So I don't argue with you there. I think if the argument is that people at sporting events and predominantly the people involved in a lot of the sporting events we watch are people of color like football, basketball and others should constantly be subjected to the worst, most white version of the national anthem possible for the rest of our lives. I do not abide by that argument. I do not agree with that argument. I will never agree with that argument. I do think, though, in terms of something that I think we as advocates and activists should be fighting for is our place and not ceding our place. I think in so many pieces of media and content, we are constantly told that America was built and defined by a certain type of person, that they're the ones that have rights to all of the citizenships and benefits of what it means to exist in this country. And I think that that's something that all of us on this podcast reject and that we push back against. And so, again, part of the reason why I think that a hacking of the national anthem and doing this most like soulful rendition, using instrumentation that is used in black and Latino music, using vocalization that's in our culture. It's a gift to us. It's a way of rejecting all of the ways in which this country is defined and choosing to define it and own it in our own way. In the same way that we talk about taking back certain words like feminist talk about taking back the word bitch, or there's like other examples of that, like owning who we are, who we are as a country who makes up this country, who really is the people that that make this country like owning that through all of our sort of examples of nationalism, I think is extremely important. And so that's why I maintain my argument particularly about this version, not just because of what he does with it, but with the Jimi Hendrix version. He's playing that at Woodstock in front of this very white audience. It's very like a hippie culture that's embracing that. It's very much for the white gaze. I feel like Marvin Gaye's version of the national anthem was for black people, for people of color, for for us. It wasn't for performance, for a white audience. 

Steven [01:34:38] I would challenge you on how how white the audience was at Woodstock. I think it's probably a little 

Brandi [01:34:43] Woodstock was mad white. 

Steven [01:34:45] I think it was more diverse than you're giving it credit for. 

Brandi [01:34:47] It was very white. 

Steven [01:34:48] I mean, do you think that do you think the performance at the 1983 NBA All-Star Game by Marvin Gaye was like some diversifier, like it's an All-Star Game in Los Angeles. 

Brandi [01:34:59] The NBA All-Star Game is called Black Thanksgiving. So, yes, I think it was 

Steven [01:35:04] As you take a sip look at you. Oh, my God. All right. Here's here's my here's my one push back. I think that serve to rebut what you just said then. I think that The Star-Spangled Banner is not the thing to is not the song that we need to remix and hack and make our own to be a representation of, like the the experience of nonwhite people here in the United States. And and I think there are better, better songs out there that I think could be hacked, could be remix, could be adopted as like the clear indicator. You know, Change Is Gonna Come by. Sam Cooke. That just evokes def. Feeling where you're reflecting on the history, you're reflecting on the impact, reflecting on an experience, and it doesn't come tinged with it doesn't come with the baggage of militarism that The Star-Spangled Banner currently comes with. Alright Matt you've heard us. Go back and forth now a couple of different times. 

Matt Howard [01:36:02] Y'all are making it hard for me. 

Steven [01:36:05] That's why we got scorecards,. 

Matt Howard [01:36:07] Right? Yeah, the I really appreciated the rebuttal period because there was a I mean, OK, so Steven's argument about the Jimi Hendrix piece. You know, I've heard that that version a bunch of times, but never had really kind of run it through my political lens or whatever you want to call it. And that resonated for a whole bunch of reasons that are probably relatively obvious, but I feel like Brandy came back hard and kind of almost demolished it. Sorry, you're not I'm not convinced that that Woodstock was a incredibly diverse audience, that that was not your strongest argument. Yeah, no. And I you know, I think what. I think. I think that Brandi, your argument kept making me think about Stevie Wonder's Happy Birthday and the way that I'd seen that come up in a bunch of different spaces, especially like black centered POC-centered spaces and how much like, you know, there's not necessarily - it's not the same as The Star-Spangled Banner in terms of like what is in it. But it is it is this kind of like touched on in a way that can feel real. I don't know, kind of like whitewashed or whiteread or whatever, and then the here and this other way, it's a totally different experience just from my own kind of positionality. So, OK, running it down, I gave Brandi 5 for creativity and Steven 4. I gave Brandi. You all were tied at 4 on receipting. Y'al both, I mean, different kind of receipting but but came with all of them. Brandi, I should like your energy was was not I don't know if it's spinning or how far, but it was even you were consistent throughout it. Steven, you kind of dipped in and out once in a while. So Brandi has the edge on you there. 4 to 3 and viability. Steven you got the edge on that 5 to 4. You know, part of it is that, you know, your audience probably. But but, yeah, it feels complicated to to say that remixing any of these things that are so deeply embedded, like can ever actually be what they, what we want them to be, or that we can actually reclaim them. And I think that kind of like pushed me. But on the rebuttal, Brandi, that was all you 4 to 3 and that put Brandy over the edge, 21-19. And I got to say, you know, I think one of the arguments that maybe was the clincher for me is like. Like, we can wish this thing away, but it's not going away any time soon, so if we gotta to hear it. Might as well hear a version that is at least transgressive as like it is, it's reappropriating something that sucks. I mean, you know down the line like, let's find another song, sure, but we've got to deal with it in the meantime and having to hear Fergie it's not where it's at. 

Steven [01:39:59] All right. Fine. Well, we'll give air horns for Brandi, good job Brandi. 

Brandi [01:40:09] Thank you, Matt. That was great. 

Matt Howard [01:40:11] That was hard, though. 

Brandi [01:40:13] I actually did, I swear it, I, I, I was like, damn, I think I might have lost 

Steven [01:40:19] I might have gotten too campy. I should I shouldn't. I shouldn't have mentioned Smashmouth. I'm sure that that's what lost me

Matt Howard [01:40:26] I mean, I hate that song so much so that it's not a good argument. No one wants to hear that. But yes. No. Yeah, no I, I heard the point there like we need something else that's much more indicative of it. But in some ways I'm like, what's the thing that we can all be proud of. That also is like not about the state. That's a harder one. 

[01:40:49] Yeah. We should just stop doing it. I think it's. 

[01:40:54] That's maybe that maybe should have been the thing I should have argued, that might have won it for me. Yeah. Matt, thank you so much for for this. And, you know, I really appreciate you coming on and giving us all that wonderful perspective. So where can folks keep track of you and your work? 

Matt Howard [01:41:12] I mean, go check out RightToTheCity.org for the dope work of Right to the City Alliance and also check out AboutFaceVeterans.org for like all of the important anti-militarist work that About Face crew. 

Brandi [01:41:28] Yeah. Thank you. 

Steven [01:41:30] Thanks so much for being here, Matt. I really appreciate 

Matt Howard [01:41:32] it. Yeah. Thanks for having me on. 

Steven [01:41:35] And that wraps it up for this episode of Bring Receipts. Thank you to our special guest, Matt Howard. If you liked what you heard, subscribe on your favorite platform and leave us a positive review. Otherwise I won't believe you when you tell me you've heard it. And tune in next time, where I debate why Fernando Valenzuela was the most influential athlete of the 1980s. Until then, hold on to your receipts.